Dan, why don't you find out which agency is responsible (if any) for the water falls trails prior to asking for suggestions and or discussion? From an earlier posting on Aug 6, 2011 Karen Mateer president of Eaton Canyon Nature Center says the water falls and water falls area is part of the National Forest and not under the jurisdiction of Eaton Canyon Nature Center, an La County facility.

What kind of signage exist at the entrance to these trails? Can you post a photo? Karen Mateer posted, the docents and volunteers regularly warn visitors of dangers to the water fall trails.

I realize this may not be a park system responsibility because it has been stated it's inside the forest area. But WWW.OCPARKS.COM has excellent trailhead information at almost all trails. I frequent Aliso and woods canyon, Laguna Coast Wilderness Park Systems. They actually provide trail users with trail information on the trailhead map system and a take with you copy. Just a suggestion on what works.

Ahem......As a long time resident I can tell you that there once were barriers and signage restricting access to the falls. I can also state that these barriers were ignored and formed a danger in and of themselves since the falls have been famous as a youthful gathering spot for at least 120 years. John Muir even wrote about them. Perhaps more hiking education for kids in local school Districts is th logical answer, as opposed to regulation, confinement, barriers, enforcement and the othr ineffective mechanisms of the governmental compliance mindset.

I think it would be less expensive to have forest rangers or maybe a volunteer from search and rescue to be there and when the idiots attempt to climb the falls tell them of the potential dangers than it is to send out Air-5 every time someone falls. I have no clue who is in charge of the area ... yet, someone from that agency, maybe 4 hours shifts (if they are available) who can maybe cite people for stupidity?

Do people read signs? I think not. My husband has a photo booth business. People get in the booth, read the sign that says "Push the red button" next to a HUGE red button and it tells how many photos they will receive. They sit there and say "What do we do?" and they take one picture and walk out leaving the other three. *shrugs*

Posting a sign warning people they will be charged for helicopter rescues .... some will read it... and maybe heed it.... I guess.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/wilson/ci_18694117

Perhaps i'm mistaken, but i'd estimate that for every one person who falls, there are countless people who manage the climb succcessfully? Every day in California, thousands climb rock faces and mountains without noteworthy issues. Occasionally, someone falls and dies. That's the nature of climbing (or any dangerous sport). By all means, place new signage with warnings, and charge people for the helicopter extraction. Restricting access is not the solution, though. It's not right to penalize the majority because of the mistakes of a tiny minority.

I think a sign with the RIP list of those who have died and a list of those who have been airlifted/rescued out posted at the Razorback trailhead would be very effective (along the amount a helicopter rescue costs).

School education would work with 1. those who are local and 2. those who are still in school; but the deaths are from people in the 20s and they are getting their info from the Internet.

Agreed too. There is no signage at the present time, only signage about fire safety, forest fires. I as a residence and I am sure there a majority of people are safe and just hike on the trails and have fun. It is the few mis-guide rock climbers with no experience that are the victims here. They are not experts or have done this as a sport or recreation activity. It is an adventure. It should be known that is a costly one.

You might be surprised to know that we the taxpayers pay for search and rescue.

I dislike that people are getting hurt and next I dislike helicopters over my house for ten minutes three times a week. ON any Saturday and Sunday morning there is 10-15 cars parked on my street and all of them have more than one passenger and they are in the canyon. That is the price to pay for being here. Just like the beach people are attracted to nature and water.

and people need to understand that just because they can get to the falls via Razorback does NOT mean that they will be able to get back.

Reading the reviews of the Razorback trail on Yelp, the kids are saying that there used to be ropes to help get past the very dangerous drop-off sections, but they've been removed. I wonder who removed them and why? It could explain why there are so many more deaths and injuries recently.
The way up to the second falls is not obvious - I only found it when I saw some kids heading up that way. I'd like to see a warning notice there - maybe an unofficial, home-printed one if the Forest Service refuses to help. By the way, the Forest Service are keeping Millard Canyon waterfall off limits for fear that the rock wedged in the falls could drop on someone. Why do they care for the public's safety there, and not at Eaton?

I think the authorities should close down the areas of the cayon that are dangerous like the razorback trail because if they just put up signs people will not listen and think nothing will happen them. After putting the barrier they could put signs saying how many people died there so people could know why they closed it down.

Hi Dan: This is a great story to stimulate discussion. I'm in favor of some kind of penalty against those who get rescued, perhaps a bill for the cost of the rescue. That would dissuade people from climbing, and at very least reimburse tax payers for the cost of their behavior. Win win for everyone.

@ Dan- Yeah aint the government game fun in the Angeles where the County, the USFS, Pasadena and everyone else points to the other guy in a never ending circle of "not my Problem".

@ Lonnee - Yeah got stuck going down once. took me some time to stop panicking and figure out a safe way down. Should we fine people ? No because thenm some broke person will be sitting there in danger of his/her life taking risks they should not because we have erected a barrier to rescue. Eaton's Canyon is experiencing far more use than it has in decades in no small part as a response to most of the Angeles having been closed due to the fire the USFS failed to control. Seems there should be a lot of extra rangers available to control that area since they have so much less usable forest to control now.

I may end up being the only one advocating this option, but I think putting in ladders is the best way to go. I can see why people would not want this - kind of spoils the lower waterfall for people who hike responsibly there, but I think adding safe access to higher waterfalls is a big win for hikers who want to see that area but don't want to risk falling to their death.

http://altadenarescue.blogspot.com/

Is this what the trail looks like beyond the first water fall? Look at July 18, 2011 blog post. What is the thought process that goes through in a hikers mind here?

The world is overpopulated anyway :)

We should put up signage. Tell people to stay on marked, maintained trails. Venturing off maintained trails changes liability. The user should pay rescue costs.

I like the idea of adding ladders/hand holds. Signs and barriers will not stop people from hiking in those areas... so why not make it safer? I've hiked in Havasupai, where there is a pretty treacherous hike down into one of the waterfall/river areas. They've added a cable to hold onto and a ladder, if I remember correctly. These made the access to one of the prettiest areas/hikes I've ever been on more easily and safely accessible.

well Yosemite and Yellowstone have cables, stair steps and hand holds in all manner of dangerous places where only a billy goat, fool or tourist would tread. Good idea, since sanity is much more rare than one would suspect.

I know it is tempting to think charging money for rescues will help, but in fact it causes a lot more problems than it solves for the rescue teams. Every major rescue organization in the United States agrees that rescues should be free. For more info, please read the Mountain Rescue Association position statement.

http://mra.org/images/stories/docs/MRAChargePosition.pdf

As mentioned in the August 6 posting to this group, while the falls and upper falls area is not under the jurisdiction of the Eaton Canyon Natural Area (a Los Angeles County Natural Area Park), the volunteers and docents at the Eaton Canyon Nature Center regularly warn hikers and visitors about the dangers of the area in question. It is my understanding that additional signage and warnings will be provided at the Nature Center and the kiosk outside the center . The so called "razorback trail", the name used by some to describe what is actually a deer trail - is not a trail at all. While we are deeply concerned about the recent events, there is no easy answer. The lack of understanding about the dangers and vicissitudes of the natural world coupled with rampant nature deficit disorder that afflicts our society is as much to blame as anything.

Posting warnings is a start to educate the public that even though the area is easily accessible from “the city”, it is not Disneyland. Real hazards exist and care must be taken. We, as volunteers and docents and lovers of the natural world need to do our part to educate visitors to the Nature Center as well as offer directions and advice to folks on the trail.

Karen L. Mateer, President Eaton Canyon Nature Center Associates

Dan, I'm with you on No. 3, placing ladders at the location. There are ladders leading up and down the Half Dome at Yosemite. It's a strenuous climb/hike and, in spite of the ladders, people have fallen and died there. Still, I believe there should be ladders because people are going to find a way up even if it means throwing caution to the wind. Signs don't work unfortunately. There are many signs posted stating dogs should be on a leash and many are not. I've seen too many dog fights, too many dogs beaten because of the fighting, and too many men almost coming to blows over the dogs fighting. So no, signs won't work. Finally, fining someone will only invite more peril as friends (or the individual) try to remove the injured person which, unfortunately, could cause harm to others or further injury to the individual.

By the way, anybody who has not visited the Facebook poll, please head there and vote on an option so we can see how many people favor each idea: https://www.facebook.com/questions/207054689348773/?qa_ref=ssp

Signs should be a part of any solution b/c they allow hikers to make more informed decisions. People may still choose to climb where they shouldn't, but at least they were warned. The hope is that a few ding dongs change their minds.
Put signs up at all known entry/exit points & where dangerous climbs start. I'm fine w/ some signs noting how many have died/how many rescues have been made but I'm not for posting the names of those who've died.
On freeways & streets, we see tons of signs letting us know of pending issues...curves ahead, downhill speed, speed bumps etc. Most drivers notice them and the hope is they adjust their driving. Same with hiking signs. Also, it's a lower return on investment vs. having paid rangers in place.

I'm fine w/ making difficult climbs more accessible, but wonder if those who want a difficult climb will bypass ropes/ladders anyway etc. If difficult climbs are made easier to access, will more people do them? If so, does that put more people in areas where they shouldn't be (or in areas that could cause more issues later on)?

-I don't think targeting Yelp & the like will do much so I'm not for that option.
-Not for barriers et.al. People tend to find a way around them. Likely to be graffiti targets too.
-Charging $ for a rescue? I know it's similar to being charged for an ambulance coming to your home. I'm not sold on this as a deterrent. Have fun collecting on that bill. Someone won't pay, then we put them in jail?,,,costs us more $.

There is no accounting for common sense and intelligence. Just like Yosemite, you can mark it with warning signs and rails but somebody is going to think thants not for them. Just scan the people for paint cans before they enter and the rest is their problem.

Citizen K, you said "rescues do not cost tax payers that much"? what??? It cost approx $4k an hour to keep the sheriffs dept Air rescue 5 helicopter in the air. Have you ever seen a rescue in progress? There are countless fire engines, paramedics, battalion chiefs, sheriffs department personnel on the scene. Oh and yes, your volunteer search and rescue.