Hats off to you! Love it.

I can't speak for the author but I do think that one the points of this article is to get people in a frame of mind to join in with many of us who have chosen to adopt and rescue dogs instead of buying from breeders or pet stores. We see the impact that feral and neglected animals have on our communities and know that adoption + spaying/neutering = the best outcome for everyone concerned. We would also like to see an end to dog racing if for no other reason than to avoid having to read about tragedies like this one that occurred near to where I live:

http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/Ebro_Sheriff_Speaks_out_for_First_time_in_Ebro_Greyhound_Deaths_106797208.html

Please keep in mind that this is a case that became public. We'll never know how many dogs suffer in anonymity. Also, I believe the 20,000 count refers to dogs being put down before there were adoption and rescue groups.

Pro-racing individuals and groups like to spout out their "over 90%" get adopted line. What about the other percentage? What about the 7% to 10% not adopted out? With over 15000 greyhounds bred last year, down from more than 20000 in previous years, what happens to the 1500 to 2000 greyhounds not being adopted out? Are we to believe they are all females, returned to the farm for breeding? We can play the statistics game all day long, but it serves no end. Many people feel the life of a racing greyhound (living in a cage for 20+ hours a day, being fed 4D meat, with little to no bedding) is inhumane and inappropriate.

Once greyhounds are taken from the racing environment, they do make wonderful pets. As the author said, greyhounds want the same things we do - a warm bed, a soft hand, and good food. It helps to have a couch, too, but there might not be any room for you to sit on it. Former racers quickly adapt to a home and figure out the couch is a great place to stretch out on your back, feet in the air, and snooze the day away.

You're right, we shouldn't judge people, or an industry, by one slanted article. We should consider the entire gamut of articles that detail the inherent cruelty in this sport. Nor should we judge everyone in the industry by the actions of a single individual, like Ronnie Williams. But the stories are chock full of "individuals" who mistreat these animals, on or around the tracks where they race. How many individuals have to be called out before we declare the industry a blight? I think we're well past that point.

No. You should consider all slanted articles to be exactly what they are - paid for and written with a purpose to skew facts in favor of a particular political view.

As atrocious as Ronnie Williams' actions are and as horrific as it is to think that someone could go from doing a good job caring for animals to that horror, in terms of numbers of dogs starved to near death, in the last year I've seen as many adopter surrenders that looked as bad as RW's dogs because they lost their jobs or means or homes and didn't want to give up their dogs until the very last moment. From the perspective of the treatment of the dogs, one is not worse than the other. The sad part is, that none of those people were criminally charged (it's a felony here and in surrounding states) because they had a sad story. Starving a dog is starving a dog in my book.

Just so I know, what's the threshold for "chock full?"

Swifthounds, what we can take from that statement is that both instances of what is a very similar problem has been brought about in both cases by the greyhound racing industry over-breeding dogs, and thrusting too many of these wonderful animals upon society as it systematically purges its industrial garbage. Like flushing a toilet.

I'm glad we can agree on that.

Nice to see you defending Ronnie Williams and compare him to a family or two that are trying their very best. Even I have trouble getting by, and looking after my garbage dog- someone elses waste, isnt always cheap. Hes my luxury! Good to know I'm right up there with Ronnie Williams. Thanks. Thats epic.

"90% go to adoption and some go to breeding." And? Some get killed. Some with injuries get turned over to adoption groups to pay thousands in health-care bills. Some with treatable injuries get a bullet to the head, or a club, because they're not worth treating if they're not going to race any longer. I think you really nailed the issue when you said, "If they don't perform well they don't earn money." You're right - at that point they're a drain on the kennel, and thus not worth keeping around. That's the problem.

Okay, Susan, Maxine and Candy, time to pull out your GPA Policy Manual (that's Greyhound Pets of America, for those of you who don't know) and re-read the "Mission Statement" which clearly states that GPA adoption groups (the largest network of greyhound placement groups in the U.S.) must "work very closely with the greyhound industry to ensure that only those dogs with the highest degree of pet potential are placed for adoption".

So this is from where they get the high percentage of placements: They are only taking into account what they consider to be the "adoptable" greyhounds then taking a percentage of that ambiguous figure. And believe me, after almost 18 years of placing greyhounds, there are many that do not qualify for those strict standards of "highest degree of pet potential".

I apologize for not being as clear as I intended. There were over 15000 greyhound pups whelped last year, which would mean the 2,671 litters you referenced would have been approximately six pups per litter. That's not an unusual number. So, no, I'm not telling a tall tale, I'm quoting from the National Greyhound Associations's own numbers.

No, Susan, I'm not saying greyhounds are the only ones put down due to illness or injury, but that's not the point of this series. I am saying they are the only ones being put down because they can't run fast enough to continue earning a profit for their owners. These claims that the greyhound industry is not as bad as other groups is akin to saying, "At least it's not crack!" Are there other industries associated with animals that deserve widespread condemnation? Absolutely. But the greyhound racing industry is definitely part of that wider grouping.

What's a farce is that you keep asserting that the 90% rate is inaccurate despite having NO EVIDENCE to back that up.

You won't find any dogs, anywhere who are tracked from birth to death in the U.S., except those bred specifically for scientific testing on animals. That's a convenient straw man for Grey2K, though.

Why aren't those records kept? It would take one more line in the already lengthy records kept on racing greyhounds to indicate the disposition of the dog at the end of its racing career.

Honestly, efforts have been made to have adoption groups report the dogs they receive and place, and it has been met with a decade of continuous resistance. Where greyhounds have been tracked at least to their departure from racing i.e. adoption, farm, etc. the AR radicals have continued to argue that those dogs didn't really go to adoption or didn't really go to the farm. In order to verify these disclosures, adopters would have to be willing to turn over personal information to those doing the tracking, which thus far they aren't inclined to do.

Swifthounds: I can't believe that the NGA has tried to pass the buck, again, onto adoption groups. It sounds more like an excuse for intentionally not tracking animals. As far as "personal information", yes, I would have a problem sharing names and addresses of adopters with the NGA. But that doesn't prevent the NGA from recording which group or individual received the greyhound from the track kennel. That could be as simple as "Distributed to:" and then the agency - REGAP, GCNM, GPA, or "private individual". The industry does such a good job of keeping so many records about the greyhounds, but they suddenly drop the ball when it comes to where the hounds end up after racing. This way they can continue to claim really high adoption numbers without being able to provide any evidence to support their own figures.

Eric, I can at least take you seriously if you actually have something to say that doesn't include silly catch phrases that undermine your arguments. They make you sound like you don't really know what you're talking about and are just spouting the Grey2K party line. IF you're a thinking person, I would hate to see no one treat you as such because you undermine your own credibility.

Lots of people would have a problem with handing over their personal information? Why? What do they think the NGA or a state racing commission or a volunteer tracking agency (I did, on at least 7 separate occasions offer to start, fund, and staff a tracking system that would track greyhounds from the track to homes, farms, etc. - I got hate email from adoption reps and groups - of all people...)? If we're talking about tracking greyhounds from birth to death and the issue is not being able to verify where they went following a racing career, what's the problem with making adopter information as accessible as NGA owner information?

In terms of tracking where the dogs go generally, i.e. what group or whether it was an individual, owners do that now. When an owner says that all of his dogs are sent back to the farm, taken home with him, given to friends, or placed in a group , he's is met with contempt and disbelief. Why? What more would you have him do? What more can he do if groups won't confirm what dogs they receive and and where they are placed?

It's handy that statistics are kept. It's disingenuous (at best) to spout off numbers like "too sick/too hurt to race" without disclosing to your audience that included in those figures are dogs that were scratched for being s bit under prior weight or too far over. Those dogs aren't sick, nor hurt, but it sure pads your argument to fail to disclose that detail.

That's bull. Their crates are larger than those used in people's homes. Grey2K uses LIES and SCARE TACTICS and pictures/videos of abuse that are from other countries, etc. Grey2K is the greyhound version of PETA for those who don't know. Greyhounds aren't hyper dogs that need alot of exercise. They get turned out more that the average house pet.

Also, the group I work with is not GPA. We take all kinds - including non-cat and non-small dog safe, non-kid safe dogs.

As for injuries, it's an extremely small percentage of the overall numbers that race. The dogs love to run. They aren't being forced to. Watch the end of a race when they all stop - they're wagging their tails looking around for where the lure went.

Maybe you should tell NGAP their crates are too small too - they are the same size. They're making enough money off adoption they should be able to get bigger crates, right?

Ummm, Susan, Tucson is in Arizona. That's in the US, not a foreign country. That was the source of the latest video released by Grey2K. That video shows the size of the crates the animals are kept in, the lack of bedding in those crates, with a track employee explaining that the meat they are fed is from down or diseased animals, and, perhaps most disturbing, showing the animals caged with muzzles on. The muzzles are supposed to prevent the animals from nipping each other when they're racing or turned out. Keeping the muzzles on is an example of pure laziness on the part of the trainer/handler. I don't consider that either appropriate or adequate care.

So let me get this right, when "statements by the dog racing industry" serve to confirm your assertion of confinement in cages, they're correct and reliable. When "statements by the dog racing industry" assert a 90% adoption rate, they are incorrect an unreliable. Very telling about your agenda.

Swifthounds: Please understand that my reference was to the video shown by a news agency, not "statements by the dog racing industry". People can see for themselves, by watching the video, the size and state of the cages. I also don't claim the 90% adoption figure is inaccurate, just that it leaves a large number of dogs unaccounted for.

Eric: that wasn't directed at your comment. It appeared below yours because it was posted later in time to the post to which we both responded.

Well, it's not a news agency if they merely accept an edited and staged video produced by a political entity. It's as much news as political candidate advertisements. News agencies investigate and report news.

If people did more than swallow whole the lies Grey2K spreads, they would know that kennel crates come in various sizes, some of which are much larger than what was shown in the video and all of which are larger than the crates utilized in pet homes.

Swifthounds: It's unfortunate that this venue doesn't allow replies to later comments. It can get confusing to figure out who's talking to whom.

I hope the news channel does a follow-up story, because it looked pretty bad when they were told there was no way they could go back to the kennel area. The issue of crate size in a home versus at a racing kennel has been previously addressed, so I'll let that one stand.

Do you really think that video was "staged", implying it was not shot in the location or under the conditions credited? It may well have been edited for content, but the content is pretty ridiculous, even so. Is this an isolated incident at a specific track? Some of it, like the dogs being muzzled inside their cage, hopefully so, but generally, I don't think so.

Eric: Yes, the way this is set up is disorganized and not conducive to discussion.
By regulatios, track rules, insurance rules, and sometimes state law, people who are not employed by the track or by a kennel are not permitted into the areas where the dogs are kept. This is for the plain and simple reasons of safety and security. If you are a trainer and you let people into your kennel and they have contact with your dogs and the dog tests positive for a banned substance, YOU get fined and suspended, regardless of your excuses. The number one job of a trainer is to keep those dogs safe and secure. Honestly, this video is proof of why others should not be allowed in - people lie, misrepresent themselves, and would endanger dogs to promote their agenda.

Dogs may be muzzled in their crates for several reasons. Some kennels will have kennel muzzles on the dogs that are going to race that day as an obvious visual clue at morning feeding time that those dogs should not be fed. It's unsafe for a dog to run hard on an empty stomach.

What was pretty ridiculous? Other than that it was staged to present to the public a few seconds of what could be hours of video, under false pretenses, with an overlay not of observed facts, or any statements by kennel workers, but of scripted lies and half-truths. Have you even been to a racing kennel? Most people have not, which is what Grey2K is exploiting. Basically, they think you're too sheepish to think or investigate for yourself.

Swifthounds: Fortunately, we don't have any greyhound racing here in New Mexico, and I don't travel very often to locations that do. Meanwhile, what would be the point in visiting a kennel if I couldn't be allowed in, anyway? I've seen news reports from inside nuclear power plants, and I've been through and on all kinds of military aircraft, including an active sub-hunter, but I couldn't see the inside of a racing kennel? You can't have it both ways. If you're going to condemn groups for not visiting kennels, then you can't claim they're not allowed to visit those same kennels. Which is it?

The plain and simple truth is that you can't have an informed opinion about something where your information is both second-hand and filtered through the lens of a political agenda. In fact, access can be lawfully granted to non-employees of a track, provided you are credentialed to do so. Becoming credentialed is not difficult if you have a clean background, don't lie about your name, and have proof of your identity so that you can be held responsible for your actions.

Too often, we forget that racing kennels are not open to the public for the health and safety of the dogs inside. I would like to think that someone wouldn't lie about who they are, why they are there, and that they wouldn't present falsehoods as truth to promote a political agenda - but the video is proof that they do. I would also like to think that none of those folks use drugs that could be transferred to the dogs (things like cocaine and estrogen creams are easily transferrable) and that none of them would deliberately harm a dog to help a cause, but it's hard to believe that when people lie about everything else...

Thats just utter nonsense swifthounds.

The only ones truly being protected are the racing industry enthusiasts themselves. And you say:"you can't have an informed opinion about something where your information is both second-hand and filtered through the lens of a political agenda. "
Well what about having an opinion based on first hand experience and official records maintained by the industry itself?

You'll find that most people here defending the hounds have plenty of first hand experience, and the injury reports speak volumes.

You accuse greyhound advocates of lies, but the whole point is that until the industry is honest about the death and lives lost, there is no rationale. Until a very powerful vetted watchdog can strip the industries back to their very core, with 100% co-operation, all we'll ever see from those with their snouts in the trough are lies. That too my friend, is Global.

Swifthounds: I'm looking forward to seeing what the news agency manages to come up with, but I'm surprised nobody at TGP informed them, according to the interviews they've published, that they would be able to visit the kennels. In fact, they were denied access for fear the public would misconstrue what they saw as inappropriate, despite the tracks assertions that everything was just fine. To me, that sounds like the track officials don't consider the general public intelligent enough to make up their own minds, or they know what they're doing in those kennels is socially unacceptable. Neither of which reflects well on the track or the industry.

As for a tracking system, there is one key difference between NGA owners records and eventual adopter records. NGA keeps tabs on "racing" greyhounds, while they're racing, because they are part of a gambling industry. If you want to enter your greyhound in a race that you're inviting the public to wager on, then you should expect to provide more information than if you have a greyhound at home as a pet.

Finally, the cocaine comment. I have never encountered a transdermal application for cocaine. Are you saying that if a trainer has cocaine on his hands, then rubs the dog, the cocaine will transfer to the dog, seeping through its skin and entering the bloodstream where it could then produce a positive test result? I really don't think so, but I'd love to see some references on that one.

The closing of tracks has caused the recent excess of dogs, due to the spread of lies by Grey2K, plus people are more interested in gambling in casinos than on races. Gambling on horse racing is down too. Too much work to handicap a race - easier to sit on a stool and pull a lever. You don't have to think to be able to pull a lever.

NGA doesn't allow the use of live rabbits for training. At one track the lure is a large stuffed bone.

...or for the racing industries version of the truth. Specifically, look at their numbers in regards to adoptions. "More than 90% are adopted out or returned to the farm." And what happens to the rest? The site also claims that "full adoption can be reached as early as 2007". That implies that "full adoption" has not occurred. Unfortunately, here we are in 2011 and there are still greyhounds being put down or dying than being adopted out.

You can also go to http://www.greyhoundnetworknews.org/Fact%20Sheets/One%20Page%20Fact%20Sheet%2009%202006.pdf and read their single page fact sheet. Keep in mind that both of these sites are quite dated.

I know it wouldn't occur to you to consider, since it doesn't fit the AR agenda, but some owners actually retain their dogs as pets when their careers are over. Some give their dogs to amateur performance sight hound homes, and some become beloved pets of a favorite kennel helper or trainer. None of those dogs are included in the "adoption" or "farm" figures.

So, the industry is skewing their own figures to make themselves look worse? It would certainly behoove them to include ANY greyhound going to a permanent home in the numbers adopted.

Judy - I never said they used live lures at the tracks. Give me a break. Just saying the lures at the tracks aren't all stuffed rabbits - they use other things too. You need to slow down your reading and comprehend better.

If you have any actual EVIDENCE that anyone is using live lures, why would you not report them for violating the law?

I think basically it's an issue of animal exploitation and what some people are willing to tolerate as far as what an animal must endure for the sake of entertainment or experimentation. It's hard for me to comprehend why anyone would participate in or approve of any industry or "sport" that causes a lot of animal suffering and killing for the sake of human greed.

Hi, PJ. It's hard to be neutral in these discussions. In fact, claiming neutrality is commonly looked at as being essentially "pro-racing". You're on the right track - read as much information as you can get your hands on, then decide for yourself whether the greyhound racing industry should be defended or condemned. Through my work with an adoption group, I have become very anti-racing. Not only do I not get any money from the industry, I'm happy to put money out there to shut the industry down.

Jason - the issue with live lures is "how" the prey animal dies. Putting a rabbit into an enclosure for the sole purpose of having it killed by greyhounds is inhumane. The greyhounds aren't hunting the rabbit for food.

Being a Grey2K activist I would expect you to say that.

Susan, the bottom line is there are too many animals being bred, including greyhounds bred for tracks. It's a simple concept, but the parts are separated in time and space, so some people have a hard time putting them together. Every dog bred means an existing dog in a shelter will not be adopted. Start with 1 dog in a shelter. That dog needs 1 home. Meanwhile, another dog is born. That dog also needs 1 home. Now we have 2 dogs needing 2 homes. There are X homes available. Any dogs bred beyond X will end up euthaniszd due to the lack of an available home. Using that logic, every greyhound bred for the track takes up one of those available homes.

Keeping tracks open because that's better for the greyhounds? That doesn't make sense. Yes, when a track closes, there is a rush to home the dogs released from the track, but it's a one-time rush. It's happened repeatedly, and the adoption groups step up, put themselves out, and place those greyhounds.

If all of the tracks closed down, the NGA greyhound would become a breed like any other - still bred for love, profit, or out of stupidity and irresponsibility. There is no sense to the assertion that ending racing would eliminate the greyhound breed. How many golden retrievers are actually used as hunting dogs instead of pets? How many Jack Russell terriers are still used to hunt small game? Neither of those breeds has ceased to exist because their original purpose has become widely obsolete. The end of greyhound racing would mean the end of greyhound exploitation, not the end of the breed.

Eric Jackson wrote:There is no sense to the assertion that ending racing would eliminate the greyhound breed. How many golden retrievers are actually used as hunting dogs instead of pets? How many Jack Russell terriers are still used to hunt small game? Neither of those breeds has ceased to exist because their original purpose has become widely obsolete. The end of greyhound racing would mean the end of greyhound exploitation, not the end of the breed.

ME: The end of greyhound racing would mean the end of valuable breeding lines and the end of a genetically diverse an healthy breeding population. Yes, folks breed Jack Russells without purpose and without regard to ability to perform its original job or remain at all healthy. The Jack Russell is also no longer the healthy, hardy terrier it once was - a very good example of how a breed is irreparably harmed when it ceases to be bred for purpose.

Kathy said:
If greyhound racing goes away in it's entirety, first of all, the adoption groups would be saturated with greyhounds needing placement--MANY WOULD END UP BEING PUT DOWN.

Why is that?

Who would put them down? The very industry that is keeping them alive as long as they run to the finish line first.

Greyhound racing would be phased out. Breeders have to stop breeding so there wouldn't be an overflow. I'm putting the responsibility back where it belongs -- on the industry.

No rescue group is going to put them down.

You cannot fix something when its core mechanic is at fault. the injuries and deaths cannot be remedied. Its the nature of the act, and the nature of the people involved. Its easier to kill a dog quietly when no-one ever knew it existed, rather than to fess up and say you have more unwanted dogs than you can cope with. Or more unwanted dogs than an adoption agency can cope with.

Susan - please read my post again, as I did go after every breed. Yes, there are all kinds of dogs out there being overbred, and they are responsible for the shelter crisis in this country. However, every greyhound bred is another animal who eventually will need a home.

Candy - when did GPA change the wording? Your version is truncated. You left out the last sentence "The philosophy of GPA is to work very closely with the greyhound industry to ensure that only those dogs with the highest degree of pet potential are placed for adoption." Did they recently change their mission statement in order to appear more concerned for ALL retired racers rather than just those with the highest degree of pet potential?

Yes, yes, we know you used to be anti-racing. I think you and the others who defend greyhound racing need to visit a few more farms, kennels and tracks, and perhaps unannounced.

And BTW, GREY2K USA does assist in adoptions.

http://www.greyhoundpets.org/index.php

Mission statement is as she posted.

How convenient that GPA has now removed the last sentence. Are you going to deny this is what they have done? Obviously, they figured out it wasn't a real good representation of an organization that is concerned for the welfare of all racing greyhounds.

Judy, I have no knowledge about them removing anything.

How do you come up with the idea that I want to eradicate the greyhound breed? Again, read what I wrote, and as you quoted below. The end of racing would not end the breed.

Again, I don't understand what you are saying. In the same breath you say the breed will cease to exist, but you also say that anything and everything can be bred. Wouldn't greyhounds be part of "anything and everything"? Therefore, they could still be bred, right? So if they're being bred, then they can't cease to exist.

As I said, the NGA breed AS WE KNOW IT TODAY would cease to exist. As you say, re-read what I wrote.

"The NGA greyhound" is no better companion than any greyhound. The breed as a whole is pretty darn great . You know they said the horse would cease to exist when Ford introduced the first "horseless carriage".....

The breeding of different breeds often results in healthier animals than the incestual breeding of groups like the AKC, where dogs are so in-bred that some develop life-threatening or life-ending genetic conditions. As I sit here, I'm looking at four greyhounds from at least two states. But they're all related. Tracking their pedigrees, their family trees overlap within three or four generations. In-breeding tends to exaggerate traits that would be bred out of a line with a larger genetic pool. Groups like the AKC establish a "breed standard" and then try to breed dogs to that standard. Unfortunately, when the standard calls for a smaller than normal head (King Charles Spaniel) or low hips (German Shepherd), the individual dogs suffer. But I digress.

Susan P.: "As I said, the NGA breed AS WE KNOW IT TODAY would cease to exist."

You're right, the NGA breed that is warehoused in kennels and raced for the profit of humans would cease to exist. But that doesn't mean the bloodlines of the dogs would cease to exist, or the NGA greyhound would somehow become "intermixed" with other breeds.

They are bred for performance, not looks. If there are genetic/health issues the dog won't perform and thus won't be bred to carry it on. Take the performance out and they will just be another AKC breed with issues. Only the very best are bred. Wouldn't make financial sense otherwise. No one is getting rich on greyhounds these days, except some adoption groups like NGAP.

To clarify, right now only the best performers are bred. The industry is very careful not to let un-neutered/spayed dogs into the general population. How many breeds do that? I call that responsible.

Susan - every greyhound I've met coming off a track has been spayed/neutered "after" being handed over to an adoption group. Not one has been spayed/neutered while under the care of a racing kennel.

Yes, the majority of greyhounds are spayed/neutered by adoption groups. The implication is that the groups doing this is subsidizing racing. In reality, the adoption groups are subsidizing adopters. Adopters get a vaccinated, socialized, leash trained, crate-trained, altered greyhound with clean teeth for the bargain basement price of the $175 to $300 it would cost for just the altering, without the anesthesia, vaccines, socialization, teeth cleaning, etc.

Henderson Greyhound Farm is hardly in an "urban" setting, even if they are in Avondale. In fact, like many parts of Albuquerque, I would consider their setting to be "rural" to "semi-rural". But, what was your point? That there are two farms in other than rural areas?

You're absolutely right, Candy. And I remain opposed to the lack of procedures and policies in place at ENMU in regards to those greyhounds. I'm glad they're doing well, but the University has still failed to develop any written plans for the care and eventual retirement of them. Perhaps we should also mention that ENMU tried for 10 years to get live greyhounds, but they couldn't find a group that was willing to place a dog, let alone two, with them.

Yes, Candy, we've heard about how well the greyhounds are doing at ENMU, but we've also gotten a few reports about some problems as well. That experiment is still being evaluated. People from other colleges who have live mascots that live in homes with a family also protested to the idea that the ENMU greyhound mascots would be shuffled from student to student rather then being placed in a permanent home.

I've battled enough over the years with the racing apologists - there is no reasoning with them. There is no valid defense for dog racing.

Too true, Chuck. Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSUtuNk3c8s

It's funny, but not in a "ha ha" way.

Chris....
1. Any dog trainer who tells you to keep your dog in a crate for three to five years isn't worthy of being called a trainer. There's a difference between crate training and permanently housing an animal in that crate.

2. Many people do feed their greyhounds and other pets human quality foods.

3. But if your son or daughter breaks an arm or a leg, or Heaven forbid, became paralyzed, would you take them out in the yard and shoot them, or beat them to death? Or you could be "humane" and give them a lethal injection. No? Professional human athletes aren't killed when they hurt, but professional racing greyhounds are.

4. I haven't met a dog yet that didn't like to run. But isn't it a shame that animals that "love to run" only get to run in 30 second bursts, on demand of humans, before they're put back into their cages.

We share our home with former racing greyhounds, and I'm proud of the fact that they're companions, not commodities. I'd love to take all of ours to Grey2K and thank them for their work to end this cruel sport.

One big difference, Kathy, is that teachers, doctors, police, fire departments, etc., all provide a valuable community service. I do not consider racing for wagers to be a public service. The greyhound racing industry is more similar to drug dealers than police officers. Are they the same? No, but it's a more apt comparison.

All I said was they are all great companions, I did not say they are the same. And I'm glad you brought up the subject of Dr. Cuoto at Ohio State as he has done some valuable studies on health problems in racing greyhounds.

So we should all be vegeterians to make the cows happy? You animal rights people have lost your minds.

Jason, I'm not going to make this a personal attack or comment on your level of intellectual ability. The greyhound presented with a caged rabbit is *not* hunting for food as a means of survival, but rather based on instinct. There is a huge difference between wild animals, like coyotes, running down and eating a rabbit compared to a domesticated animal running down and killing an animal for the amusement or interest of humans.

Thanks for bringing up the history of using greyhounds for hunting. It contradicts some of the other statements that have been made here claiming that the breed would become extinct if the racing industry died out. The breed has survived one change of occupation already, why not two?

I am predominantly vegan due to the treatment of animals on factory farms, I am sickened and disheartened about the situations at animal shelters and I am anti-racing.

I can't believe you so completely misread the comments about the California cattle campaign. If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

Chris: From the GRA's current media kit...http://www.gra-america.org/media_kit/press/mediakit.html

#3. How old are Greyhounds when they begin racing?
Most begin racing at about a year and a half, and continue to four years old. Some will race beyond their fifth birthday, and a select few past their sixth.

That's definitely within, and even beyond, the range I specified.

As for human quality foods, that's a lot different from "table scraps", and everyone should be careful of what they feed their animals.

I'm glad you have paid to treat and maintain your greyhound, despite a broken leg. You're right, many people will not put out that kind of money for their animals, and that's a shame.

Finally, I don't care what sport your kids play. But if people want to compare greyhounds to athletes, then we should be able to draw parallels between their level and type of care. It's not about closing soccer fields, or football stadiums, or mountains, it's about not killing "athletes" who can't perform at a highly competitive level.

Here's more relevant information on how old racing greyhounds can be:
http://tinyurl.com/3ylm6vb
http://www.endtucsongreyhoundracing.com/blog/2011/01/06/5-year-old-dog-racing-at-tucson-greyhound-park%E2%80%93raced-300-times/

According to Greyhound-Data.com, AK's Fruitcake was whelped December 8, 2005, so she turned five last month and is still racing.

Surprise! I'm sure you had no idea just how big this can of worms really is. I look forward to your follow up stories. As you can probably tell from some of the posts, there are a number of individuals on both sides of the issue who are vehement about their stance, and we keep popping up on all press reports about greyhound racing. :-)

Hi Dan,

Thank you for your pledge to do a follow-up article on the issues surrounding greyhound racing.

I'm the Vice President of GREY2K USA, a national non-profit organization working to end dog racing nationwide. Our website is www.GREY2KUSA.org, and we will be happy to speak with you about the cruel and inhumane sport of dog racing.

Thank you,
Jen Krebs

Veganboy: It amazes me that people will allow a single kennel owner to run a race with his/her own dogs as the sole source of competition. Talk about a ripoff. And also talk about stacking the deck. How do you properly handicap a race when the individual dogs can be hand selected to influence/determine the outcome?

It will be interesting to see if anyone can dispute your figures.

Speaking of drugging dogs, a vet at Tuscon Greyhound Park has recently admitted to defying a local law banning the use of steroids to suppress estrus in racing females. He's quite happy to openly admit defying the law and best veterinary practices.

We have our problems in the US with this industry, but it sounds like New Zealand is way out there in terms of cruelty.

You're right, Swifthounds, that's not an uncommon practice. Unfortunately the lack of regulation and oversight makes it incredibly difficult for a consumer to know whether the food they are buying contains 4D meat or not.

If it's commercially manufactured, it does include 4D meat. It just makes consumers feel better to ignore that fact.

While generally true, there are companies that do not use 4D meat in their foods. But we're forced to trust that what they claim is the truth. Talk about an uphill battle for regulation, though, since we already do such a poor job regulating and monitoring the human food chain.

There are a few companies that claim to use U.S.D.A inspected meats. That only applies to meats and not any of the "meals" or "digests" int he food which are, by definition, made from 4D sources.

Of course people also ignore two things: 1) dog food companies are not required to change the labeling on their food for 6 months after they have changed the formula and2)not ever meat sold as 4D is in any of the 4D categories - to move meats faster and avoid spoilage, meat processors routinely downgrade meats and sell them as lower quality/cost to avoid losing profits.

The difference between feeding kibble made with 4-D meat and feeding the meat raw, as is the practice with racing greyhounds, is that the kibble undergoes cooking at high temperatures, which destroys the high levels of bacteria (such as Salmonella and e. Coli) that the meat contains.

In 'Care of the Racing Greyhound' by Linda L. Blythe, James R. Gannon and A. Morrie Craig, a highly-regarded guide ‘for trainers, breeders and veterinarians’, the following statements are found:

--- 'There are two problems with the use of 4-D meat in the Greyhound industry. The first is drug residues that the Greyhound ingests with the food and passes into the urine. Animals (cattle and horses) that are the source of this meat have often been treated with antibiotics such as procaine, penicillin and sulfonamides which then show up as positives in the racing Greyhound's urine'.... 'In addition, if the animal is euthanized by means of a concentrated barbiturate solution, these can also show up as a drug positive in urine.'

--- 'The second problem that can arise from 4-D meat is due to the fact that some of the meat is contaminated with pathogenic (disease-producing) bacteria such as Salmonella'.

--- 'Cooking would destroy the bacteria that contaminate meat, but Greyhound trainers are hesitant to do this as it is not known what changes in performance might result due to loss of other essential ingredients in raw meat.'

Do you not understand that any "drug residue" is not affected by cooking. The same "drug residue" that may be present would be present whether it's fed raw or fed in its most popular form, cooked dog kibble. Where's your outrage and concern for the pet animals being poisoned?

Healthy dogs are not susceptible to illness from salmonella or e coli. If they were, they would never have been able to survive in the wild. Dogs, wolves, and other carnivores are designed to live on a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs.

In response to JenKrebs going on about how the differences between kibble and raw meat--sorry, your facts have been proven wrong. There are all kinds of scientific studies to prove that kibble is actually likely the main culprit in the increase of cancer in dogs and is a danger to our dogs' health.

Kibble came about in the last 100 years out of convenience--not for the health and safety of our pets.

Did you know that euthanized animals can be found in commercial pet food?

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/soon-to-be-published-paper-finds-shocking-results-from-pet-food-testing.html

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/soon-to-be-published-paper-finds-shocking-results-from-pet-food-testing.html

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/disturbing-%28and-illegal%29-fda-compliance-policies.html

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/kroger-pet-food-plant-inspection-discovered-aflatoxins.html

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/epa-document-proves-euthanized-dogs-and-cats-are-rendered.html

That to me, highlights the incredible burden that the greyhound racing industry puts on society. These trainers think "Sweet! my unwanted dogs adopted! Problem solved! Maybe I'll get another 2 this time?.." And they dont realise the immense responsibility of ownership that they carelessly pass on to someone else so they can carry on their gambling habit. I know first hand whats involved with caring for a retired racer and the responsibilities aren't trivial. Wheres all that gambling money when a retired racers torn gracius flares up again? Not to mention the run of the mill health issues. I would love to have chosen a greyhound by choice, why I might have even had the rare piviledge to experience his lovely nature as a cute puppy! No that privilege is reserved for racing scumbags. I took my dog because he had nowhere to go, like hundreds of others. Its not acceptable. It must stop.

Hounds--the atrocities you bring up are NOT specific to greyhounds. Take a look at most county/government shelters where sick and injured animals suffer in silence.

If you say so. I've seen the dog raced with a broken tail, that had to be amputated, I've pulled dogs out of industry funded adoption kennels, starving. I own one. I've added up the death toll and injury reports, I've seen the hundreds of dogs waiting in a queue just to have somewhere to go, and I've seen the problem repeated the world over.

Enjoy your delusion.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=376232&l=8b07493059&id=1441583959

Sorry but according to you, you don't even live in this country thus don't know what goes on here. Even your side has stated that your "country" is far worse than ours with regards to racing. How did you even find this article, being from NZ?

If greyhound racing is exploitation of animals, then I hope you are against 95% of what is done to horses. Any kind of riding then is exploitation. Riding them is not natural. Keeping them in stalls is not natural. Do you boycott the Olympics where horses can compete and can certainly be mortally hurt?

Please stay on topic, we are discussing greyhounds not horses. The mechanic of broken hocks and fast money, vs slow carcasses is global.
If you want to retain the last of your credibility please stick to the topic at hand.

There is no money left here in greyhound racing. Get real Mr. Veganboy Grey2K. What credibility to do you have? Sounds like Grey2K with an alias. How would you even know about this article otherwise? You can't even answer the questions.

There is plenty of money left-do you not know a single professional trainer? You cant expect people to run dogs to death for enjoyment only. In New Zealand there is better money than the UK. The credibility I have is the unwanted waste of dog that I take responsibility for. The gentle loving giant who sleeps peacefully with no cage or death race to face.
I will answer your questions, but please note, they are completely irrelevant, and are a common tactic used by pro-animal-misuse advocates such as yourself, to take heat off the issue at hand, which in this case is a no-brainer. Dog racing kills, for gambling profit and entertainment.

How profoundly noble.

I know whats going on here, Because I monitor the global situation on greyhound suffering in the gambling industry. Various alerts bring articles like this to my attention. I make it my business to keep tabs, and this is an excellently written article. I commend the author.

Horses indeed suffer for gamblings sake. Some advice: Stick to one campaign, and win it. While compassion is not exclusive, it pays to do what you do well. Greyhounds are my focus, because I have first hand experience. Also in NZ drugging in Horse-racing is exposed and fines and bans ensue, whereas with greyhound racing, drugging is covered up because the industry is kingpinned by 2-3 main cartels. If one goes down for drugging, the industry could implode, and the authorities dont want to lose their jobs and income.

Olympics dont interest me.

I find that very hard to believe. I've seen first hand how anyone asking to get an un-neurtered/spayed dog is met with their request.

And groups take in un-sterilized dogs with the promise to sterilize them! Get real.

Susan - are you kidding? That's common practice at a number of tracks. It's one of the common expenses adoption groups have to pick up.

There is only one effective adoption agency here and they always have a queue of around 100 dogs. A trainer who wants to get rid of their dog therefore has to wait many months using this route. There will never be enough homes, not by a long shot. So the alternative is to give them away on our version of ebay, for free, un-neutered. It happens all the time. Another alternative is to donate the dogs for science research and experimentation, and that too, happens all the time. Because vivisectionists are given protections by law (because the experiments they do are disgusting and the public would be outraged) the overall blanket of secrecy serves the greyhound dumpers well.

Susan - To be clear, many, probably most or all, of the greyhounds coming off tracks are "intact" when they're handed off to adoption groups. The industry is doing nothing to insure dogs are spayed before they go to off-track homes. How many groups have RESCUED abandoned greyhounds who were still intact? I'm looking at a female here at our house who was found in an abandoned barn. From her tattoos, we know she raced in Arizona, but she was found in Carlsbad, NM. And she was intact until she came to our group and WE paid to have her spayed. As far as only breeding the "best performers", that doesn't explain how we also have, at our home, a puppy born to that female? I don't think she slipped through the cracks, I think she was handed over to someone without any thought or concern about where she was going or how she would fare. Now, she's spayed, up to date on her shots, and microchipped. If she ever manages to slip through the cracks again, it will be easy to determine who is responsible and to have her returned to an adoption group ready and willing to take her in.

Veganboy: By spouting off about your views on racing outside the U.S. all you do is damage your credibility with your inflammatory comments. You cannot compare NZ to the U.S. in just about anything. It's irrelevant and inappropriate for this discussion.

Really swifthounds? I'm so sorry- let me review: Broken and fractured hocks, are a global problem, dogs tend to break hocks on sand corners, toes on grass. That doesn't change when you cross borders you know. Not even oceans! Exploded heart- global. Dogs killed for not being fast enough- global. Too many dogs and not enough suitable adoption homes-Global problem. Drugging up male dogs with female steroids- global. Dogs in cages for prolonged periods of time: Global. Dogs in transport situations for hours on end: Global. Dogs injured in races forced to travel for many hours in cramped and bumpy discomfort: Hmm I guess that ones...No Wait! GLOBAL! Dogs donated to research institutions when unwanted-You guesssed it-Global! Dogs expected to assimilate into suburban life after being trained and rewarded by their socially responsible trainers for chasing what looks like the neighbours cat...oooo thats not local. So what else is there? I know gambling addiction is localised. No wait- global issue. OMG Who knew?

Yes, really. Your ranting is ill-informed, illogical, nonsensical (who would ever give a male dog female hormones?), inflammatory and unproductive. I've honestly heard better argument from individuals committed to psychiatric hospitals. All you do is harm your own cause by making anyone AR look mean, illogical, and psychotic. Keep up the good work.

I'm just giving you the facts. I realise greyhound racing enthusiasts aren't big on facts, after all they are your enemy.

[20] The swab samples were forwarded to the Racing Laboratory at Auckland, and on 30 June 2010 the Racing Analyst confirmed in writing that the sample taken from “Addicted To Luv” had tested positive for 6a-hydroxystanozolol. 6a-hydroxystanozolol is a canine metabolite of the synthetic anabolic steroid drug Stanozolol which has legitimate therapeutic uses in animal medicine. Principally Stanozolol has actions on the central nervous musculoskeletal systems of a greyhound. It is available only as a prescription medicine from a Veterinarian.

[21] In relation to Stanozolol it is also reported that “It effectively increases both muscular and skeletal weight and hastens the repair of tissues”. Stanozolol is administered by intramuscular injection, and as it is water based it is readily and quickly absorbed. Mr Carmichael said that 6a-hydroxystanozolol is clearly a Drug as defined in the Rules and its presence in a race day sample is prima facie a breach of Rule 87.

[22] Mr McInerney was interviewed about this matter and he denied the intentional administration of any product that he knew contained Stanozolol. A search of the kennel area and a locked medication cupboard failed to locate any product that contained Stanozolol. Other staff at the Darfield kennels were also interviewed but they were unable to assist with the enquiry.

[23] Mr Carmichael also said that use of anabolic steroids, such as 6a-hydroxystanozolol, had been widespread for use as a heat suppressant in female greyhounds. The Industry had been advised by notices to all licensed persons that as from 1 February 2010 the Racing Laboratory would be testing for anabolic steroids.

[24] In response to this Mr McInerney said that he had never used 6a-hydroxystanozolol for this purpose. It is also relevant that “Addicted To Luv” is a dog.

[25] During this enquiry Mr McInerney suggested that a possible source of the 6a-hydroxystanozolol could have been from horse meat from an animal which had previously been treated before being dropped at his property and slaughtered by him. However Mr McInerney was unable to establish exactly where the horse came from.

THIS is greyhound racing.

Probably. Its 4.40 PM Saturday afternoon here in Wellington, and the weather is beautiful. I've also been known to post exceptionally late because I work online and have clients from Canada to Colombia, The UK and France.

I glean most of my information from the stewards reports at
http://www.thedogs.co.nz/Home.aspx

Sadly its no surprise you find humor while we addressing the very concerning issue of thousands of beautiful dogs being killed in horrific circumstances for something as frivolous as the gambling and entertainment industries, even though they didn't do anything wrong.

I think that, is testament to your character and values.

It was so sad to hear of Berry's passing. At least we know she's in good company on the other side of the Rainbow Bridge.

I am sorry to hear of the passing of anyone's beloved companion.

As for your question of racing pups who don't race...I have one of those that I adopted from an adoption group at 11 weeks old. He is now 3 and one of the joys of my life. His ears are not tattooed. I have several friends who adopted racing greyhound puppies. Yes, there was a time when greyhound puppies just disappeared, but I homestly do not believe this is the case any longer. I know too many people who had the pleasure of adopting NGA greyhounds as pups.

I also have a female greyhound who had a brief racing career. She is another joy of my life. She is also 3 years old. She is happy, well adjusted and a sweetheart.

I also foster greyhounds for the greyhound adoption group I volunteer for. Our group is race neutral because our goal is to adopt out to screened homes, these wonderful creatures and to educate the public on what wonderful companion greyhounds can be for sopme people/familes.

As long as society abandons, neglects and abuses animals, there will ALWAYS be the need for rescues--greyhound and non greyhound.

YES! Dogs love to run, but do they like to be run into the ground, with broken toes and hocks, fractured spines exploded hearts and excruciating acidosis? Dogs also like to roll in manure, chase cats, sometimes cars and roam through neighbourhoods going through trash cans. So we ought to let them do that?
Just because an animal child or adult likes to do something, doesnt mean its in that individuals best interests. And while you refer to Petas euthanasia rates, I'd thank you to leave that debate for another day and to refocus on the topic at hand rather than try and dilute it with irrelevancies. It doesn't wash. We're discussing the thousands of greyhounds cast aside and killed prematurely, in the name of gambling and entertainment. Stay on topic.
To say this story is sensationalism is to turn your back on thousands of lonely bored hurting and dying greyhounds that just want to go home and have a dignified life. To say Adopt but "not for pity, Not for a sense of righteousness" Illustrates how out of touch you are with the real world death toll that this so called "sport" brings.

Instead of "we have dedicated our lives and sacrificed for our dogs ", did you mean to say:
"we have dedicated our lives and sacrificed our dogs " because thats what you really do, in practice. As an industry everytime you meet and hold races- theres always a raft of injuries and often tramatic deaths. So you can get your gambling kicks? A bit of a thrill? How thrilling is it watching your dogs break legs? Actions speak louder.
If you really cared for your dogs, why would you risk their lives putting them in harms way? Somehow I dont know that the word insane is being applied to the right party here.

The rest of what you said doesnt really bring anything intellectual or informative to the discussion, but I will say, I've seen the issues first hand, and for an industry shrouded in secrecy, if what I have seen is anything to go by, then we all ought to be seriously concerned.

Did anyone mention Ebro yet?

One person. Wow. If that was all of the dogs that that were surrendered dramatically underweight I might be impressed.

If you promote greyhounds as a cause du jour and use pity and sob stories to promote them as a breed, you cannot be surprised that you attract the mentally ill and hoarders rather than true aficionados of the breed.

REally, your group was willing to disclose the identity and eventual destination of every dog you've placed? Funny. I didn't get that email.

Your recollection, if it is indeed a recollection that I "had a great deal of resistance from within the industry as they were paranoid about an "AR" somehow hacking into the system and changing data" is flawed. The racing folks weren't opposed. Their information is already out there. There were, however, several emails from groups concerned that they could be sued based on their actions.

At least if you're going to post, try posting your own original work, not misinformation plagiarised from the Grey2K website.

Thanks, Catherine, for such a well versed summary of the arguments and back-and-forth in these comments.

Cheers

Racing profiteers? Who let them in? :o)

RESCUED 6? Funny, I thought you had a dog from the Fishdog kennel.....

Yup. Sure did.

Then the word "rescue" certainly does not apply to that hound, if perchance it applies to any.

Really, Swifthounds? So, do tell me exactly what you know about 'that hound'.

Tell me all you know about the last 16 months in the life of my dog.

Tell me what you do for him when he's panting and trembling in terror of thunderstorms and fireworks.

Tell me all about how you deal with his fear of children and strangers.

Tell me how much money you've spent on him, neutering him and getting his teeth cleaned and keeping his vaccinations up to date and feeding him the best dog food available on the market.

Tell me how many hikes you've gone on with him and how many car rides you've taken him on and how many treats you've given him and how many hugs and kisses you've given him and how many nights you've slept with him.

And BTW, some of us here have the spine to identify exactly who we are, what we believe in, and don't hide behind cute little names like 'Swifthounds'.

I know that that hound was placed into adoption by someone who keeps track of every dog she places.

I know that that person flew hundreds of miles from her home to meet with me and be reunited with a hound who had raced in her kennel until age 4, retired, gone to an adoptive home, ended up dumped back in adoption when the adopter got sick and the family didn't care for him any longer. The very first thing she said to me was to thank me for adopting him, especially as an old dog.

I have extensive experience working with fearful and shy dogs, thunderphobia, noise phobias, wind phobia, behavior issues, and in acclimating those dogs to children, men, strangers, construction sites, and doing obedience, field training, conditioning, and a few tricks for fun. I would be glad to share any of that expertise with you, but as it would involve a more extensive consultation, this is not the proper venue.

Chris: Do you really expect people to dedicate full time effort to an organization without receiving some compensation? Yes, Grey2K is a "non-profit" group, and it is customary for full-time employees of such organizations to draw a salary. I don't know about where you live, but everywhere I've ever lived, $32K salary is not a lot of money! Heck, we pay first-year teachers more than that, right out of college, and that's traditionally been an underpaid group.

Eric: It's not a full time job, unless you work really, really slowly. And, honestly, if you're going to hold one group accountable for making a living from the greyhounds, it's only fair to hold all groups who make their living that way accountable.

Swifthounds: I think there's a marked difference between a group trying to stop a cruel, inhumane industry and the people making money from that industry. It's like saying firefighters and arsonists are the same because they both deal with fire.

No, Swifthounds, there's most definitely a difference.

It's kind of like saying that someone who makes money fighting pit bulls is comparable to someone barely making a living who is working to change the law to make dog fighting illegal.

Yup, big difference.

Eric, that's just a ridiculous comparison.

I made no mention of anyone who owns, trains, or handles greyhounds at a track. That was your inference.

If you make your living lobbying and defaming an industry made up of people you don't know and don't understand, you are making a living from the racing industry. It would be less of a ridiculous money-grab if there was actual experience with, and love for the greyhound breed.

I'll type it more slowly for you, Jen. I wasn't comparing anyone in racing to Grey2K. If you want to start calling adoption folks arsonists and dog fighters, I can't stop you. I would say that would damage your credibility with the adoption folks, but that would imply there was credibility there to begin with.

Swifthounds: If you weren't referring to the people at the tracks, who were you referring to? As for Grey2K's personnel and their relationship with track and industry folks, I have no idea how many people they know, or why that seems relevant to you. How well do you know Carey Thiel, Christine Dorchak, or Jen Krebs?

See above.

The point being that Grey2k et. al. find fault with those in racing and believe that people in racing exploit greyhounds. Similarly, people in racing and in the breed in general believe Grey2K exploits greyhounds and doesn't have their best interest at heart. The difference being, racing isn't trying to ban Grey2K, force them out of existence, or doggedly pursue their destruction even if it means harming the dogs.

Good night, George.

Oooo! Oooo! Me! Me! Pick me!

PJ: Whether you call this a venue, a forum, or "comment section", the bottom line is the same - this is a forum where people can express themselves and hold a conversation via online postings.

Swifthounds: If you actually go back and look, it was "Maxine B" who first introduced Grey2K at 7:23am on Friday, January 7, 2011. You can hardly blame them for coming to their own defense when they've already been introduced to the discussion.

Your argument being what? That they googled themselves, saw their name come up, and ushered Ms. Krebs in to toe the party line?

It, by definition, is not coming to your own defense when you plant stories, edit your own news footage, and pass it off on the general public under the guise of news all so that you can attack those with which you disagree. If you don't like racing, don't participate. Not everything one doesn't like is cause to impinge on someone else's activities. I personally dislike greyhounds being kept fat and out of shape, but I'm not trying to go into Ms. KRebs house and inspect her dogs or pass a law that she cannot keep her dogs that way.

Swifthounds: My point being, Grey2K didn't suddenly pop up here posting "advertising" as you put it. They were brought into the discussion by someone else.

The joke is on you. You misunderstood what Pasadena Adjacent meant.

JenKrebs, you're a living breathing, movable forum. Yes indeedy, you're all that AND a bag of buffalo chips.

Who said anything about GreyTalk? Not that they're a pro-racing forum either, merely a pet forum that doesn't permit political debate on racing. Have you been banned there too?

Wow. That's a lot of low end newspapers without even a regional audience.

You don't have a message. You have a cut & paste free for all.

Still quite keen on a response here swifthounds, thanks.

Swifthounds: You've posted comments after Veganboy's questions, and it appears you're still reading these comments. So, how about some response, at least to the first couple of questions. Especially since you're demeaning others about their credibility and lack of experience.

No, "you all" have not been straight up and honest, nor have I been demeaning of anyone's credibility. Inexperience is inexperience. Credibility is earned, and you don't get it by playing cut & paste with the party line.

I don't regard Veganboy worthy of a reply, but I'll humor the request for Eric.
1. None.
2. Quite a few. Nine have been greyhounds.
3. 0 Though I do keep track of dogs at others' request.
4. Nothing permanent or career-ending.
5. 0
6. 0
7. 0

Then answer this, and its the most iportant question of all:
Is it perfectly ok for thousands of dogs to break their legs and be culled/euthanased for gambling profit and entertainment?

Experience wise I have rehomed 3 greyhounds and kept one. Have a look at this one which was kennelled with mine: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=376232&l=8b07493059&id=1441583959 So for you to say I'm inexperienced is bluntly naive.

FYI I have credibility with all recognised animal welfare and rights groups in my country, and the greyhound industry has circulated my name in order to strengthen their veil against public inquires. I think you just dont like hearing the truth, thats why you cannot address me.

Also please state what you regard as fallacy, and how you can prove otherwise. Information doesnt exactly gush out of the industry, in any country.

"Inexperience is inexperience". So, Jen Krebs is inexperienced since she's placed six greyhounds in seven years. But, what, the fact that you've placed nine makes you experienced and therefore worthy of higher consideration?

Perhaps Veganboy's question would have been better worded as "What is your involvement in greyhound racing and/or adoption?" To be fair, I'll tell you a bit more about me. I'm the Communications Director for Greyhound Companions of New Mexico, an anti-racing adoption group located in, of all places, New Mexico.

Swifthounds: I'm quite disappointed that you are demeaning Veganboy by claiming he is not worthy of your response. Why?

And if its because of my username, thats because I logged in using facebook, I'm Aaron Cross in real life, pass that on to your buddies in New Zealand. Who then are you swifthounds since you claim to have credibility that I somehow lack? *sniff..

I haven't "placed" 9 greyhounds. Placing greyhounds implies sending them to other homes, as in "placing a greyhound in an adoptive home" or "rehoming." The experience I have with greyhounds and other dogs I have handled, interacted with, fostered, rehomed, trained, assisted, and consulted on is what is valuable, not some random number.

Veganboy would have been better received if he had been discussing anything relevant to American greyhounds at all.

I am aware of your position with GCNM. I never did think you were from Ohio. :o)

What happens in industry and activism does vary from country to country, but what happens to the dogs is the same the world over. We are'nt here to discuss the poor industry of any nation, we are here to discuss the dogs- their plight is universal. Now again, since you appear to have a bad case of selective reading:

Is it perfectly ok for thousands of dogs to break their legs and be culled/euthanased for gambling profit and entertainment?

In any country?

My mistake on using the word "placed" in response to your experience. So, what is your experience?

Swifthounds, I know this question makes you uncomfortable, but I really do have to put it to you (a third time albeit):
Is it perfectly ok for thousands of dogs to break their legs and be culled/euthanased for gambling profit and entertainment?

In any country?

You didn't. You assumed I was comparing grey2k to racing people, when I was comparing grey2k and adoption. You really should brush up on your reading.

Wow. 6 greyhounds in 7 years. That explains the lack of experience. I guess you think that you have done a lot, or more than most other adopters, adoption folks, racing folks, and breed folks. Maybe you think you have experience in the breed as well. Keep patting yourself on the back.

Swifthounds: Please clarify what you mean by "people in the racing industry" if that doesn't mean workers and kennel owners at tracks. Do you consider adoption agencies, many run by volunteers with no other connection to greyhound breeding or racing, to be a part of the industry? The adoption groups I know of are not making any kind of money off the greyhounds - in fact, they're putting money into the care and feeding of greyhounds because they love them and want them to have a good life. That's a lot different from someone raising, owning, breeding, or racing greyhounds for profit. And don't tell me greyhound racing is a non-profit charity.

Oh, I don't think you're making a suggestion. Nope. No way.

I know there is a ranking system for scientific journals, but I didn't know there was one for newspapers. Or are these "low end newspapers" because they're not published in a metropolis like New York or L.A.? On its surface, your comment seems to be directed more at Jen Krebs personally than a comment about the newspapers themselves.

Oh come now..what industry do you know of that does not have a top tier, middle, and lower ed?

Ms. Krebs offered up the names of the newspapers in question apparently in support of her contention that she has "been welcome in many venues for serious public discussion." She set them out as examples of forums where she has been welcome to have serious public discussion that was more valuable than GreyTalk, which she incorrectly labels as pro-racing. While I don't consider Greytalk a serious forum, nor do I consider low end newspapers as such.

I'm paying attention. What's not to love???

Yeah, Nancy, I think any chance of a productive discussion about greyhounds has run out. The whole discussion seems to be devolving into a pattern of hateful and inappropriate comments. Until next time....

Oh, Eric, I can't wait for next productive discussion, that's sure to be a revelation. I'm sure you'll have dazzling insights that the rest of us lesser beings find hard to grasp. You know, people like us who aren't ACTUALLY greyhounds. It's been fun.

JenKrebs,
About repeating yourself, you know, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Nutty.

'Night, Johnboy

..Goodnight room
Goodnight moon
Good night cow jumping over the moon
Goodnight light
And the red balloon
Goodnight bears
Goodnight chairs
Goodnight kittens
And goodnight mittens
Goodnight clocks
And goodnight socks
Goodnight little house
And goodnight mouse
Goodnight comb
And goodnight brush
Goodnight nobody
Goodnight mush
And goodnight to the old lady
whispering "hush"
Goodnight stars
Goodnight air
Goodnight noises everywhere

Laurie: I'm sorry, but I don't recall making a blanket statement about "processing" dogs. What do you mean by "processing"? Are you referring to spaying/neutering before adoption, or turning the hounds over to an adopter? As for watching your "pet" race, I'm just glad he wasn't among those injured or killed while racing, whether that number is 1% or considerably higher.

One of the key problems with understanding injury data is actually acquiring that data, since there is not a uniform system of either recording or accessing that information. And dividing injuries by starts is one method of analyzing the statistics. There are other ways of looking at the number of injuries, such as on a per race basis, or by analyzing the starts/injuries for a given dog. Let's not forget that 1954 tome, "How to Lie with Statistics". Which of the statistical methods is best? That depends on what you really want to find out.

Laurie: In regards to the number of dogs being euthanized. According to the latest numbers from NGA, there were less than 16,000 pups whelped last year. But since greyhounds can race for anyone from two to six years, we need to look farther back in the data, potentially adding ALL of the pups whelped since 2004. Given that number, you could certainly have 20,000 animals euthanized. Is that an accurate number? I don't know, but I certainly hope it's not.

Laurie: The "meat controversy" as you put is perpetuated, in part, by ridiculous assertions, like yours on your blog, that the meat is not 4D and mixed with charcoal. There's no controversy about that. Nor is there any controversy about that meat being considered "unfit for human consumption." You make it sound like the dogs you dealt with were eating USDA Choice, 80/20 fresh ground meat.

Do you even know what a Ponzi scheme is? If you don't, perhaps you should Google the term before you throw it out here, making completely false accusations about an organization.

You may have once been a "textbook outsider", but if you're going to throw out pro-racing drivel and defame anti-racing individuals and organizations, then you are no longer an "outsider". The "textbook outsider" would be a person with an open mind, neither pro- nor anti-racing, without involvement in either side.

I really like the "available only to the media for comment." Unless you post comments to a public forum, such as this. Why would anyone in the media consult you for comment on this issue, since you're an "outsider". Wouldn't they be better served consulting someone with intimate knowledge of the racing industry and the anti-racing groups?

Going back a post - I'd love to hear more about the greyhounds you claim Grey2K sent to a shelter. Please, tell me more.

Where is the lifelong record keeping for injuries to greyhounds? No one is debating that injuries do or do not occur, but it seems to have eluded some people (conveniently) that greyhounds suffer injuries in part because of their physiology. They are light, long-boned, thin-skinned, well-muscled (well, should be), and have low body fat (well, they should). Greyhounds suffer the full range of injuries in pet homes, in show homes, and in performance homes. If your greyhound fractures a leg in your backyard, does that mean you are cruel and inhumane as well?

Swifthounds: You're right - greyhounds can be injured at any point in their life. The problem is, when you have seven to eight greyhounds running at full speed around a narrow track with tight turns, you increase the risk of injury exponentially. When you couple that increased risk with a money-making venture like racing, then many people consider that risk unacceptable.

"Where is the lifelong record keeping for injuries to greyhounds?"
Whilst that information should be available to the public including punters- so they have all the information at hand prior to placing bets, you can bet your bottom dollar that information is conveniently unavailable.

"They (greyhounds) are light, long-boned, thin-skinned, well-muscled (well, should be), and have low body fat (well, they should)."
Exactly why they shouldn't be racing.

"If your greyhound fractures a leg in your backyard, does that mean you are cruel and inhumane as well?"
When a child or pet hurts themselves whilst playing the backyard, its a sad unfortunate accident. When hundreds if not thousands of dogs are raced to death with predictable broken legs backs exploded hearts and violent deaths, that is industrialised animal cruelty for profit and entertainment.

I'm not seeing a big difference between racing and dog fighting here.

Eric: So what's the deciding factor? Multiple greyhounds? tight turns? Full speed running? Narrow area? All of those things are present in a large segment of the greyhound owning population. Of those who have greyhounds, the majority of folks have at least 2(as well they should), and a large portion have more than that. Few of those people have acres and acres. Many of those dogs will have injuries in the yard from running and playing in those conditions. Some of those dogs will be put down either because the injury is significant or because the costs of surgical repairs can be staggering. I have been at 4 separate greyhound events where greyhounds collapsed and died from a variety of causes/suspected causes. Some were preventable and some were not.

What about money makes injuries in racing worse than the same injury in a pet home? For the dog, there is no difference.

Please see my previous comment:
When a child or pet hurts themselves whilst playing the backyard, its a sad unfortunate accident. When hundreds if not thousands of dogs are raced to death with predictable broken legs backs exploded hearts and violent deaths, that is industrialised animal cruelty for profit and entertainment.

But to give you some credibility Swifthounds, Its true that these dogs can be accident prone, so a good remedy for all situations of crashing greyhounds is to shut the industry down for good and end its out of control breeding and dumping.

I'm glad we can agree on this.

Swifthounds: I think Veganboy (Aaron) has responded quite eloquently to your comments, and I would refer you to his post above.

PJ: Did you learn nothing from Fred Jacobs posts? You should be very careful about making assumptions based on your ability to find people with similar names.

PJ: Thanks for bringing up the illegal activities going at Tucson Greyhound Park. It's awfully hard for the pro-racing folks to claim there is no drugging of dogs when the track veterinarian not only admits he is shooting up female dogs with androgens, but that he refuses to stop. One more reason the greyhound racing industry needs to be shut down, starting with TGP.

I'm wondering how many South Tusconians are following the crate/cage provisions. I'm sure no one is inspecting them or fining them, either. That's the problem with a badly aimed and badly worded local rule.

Swifthounds: The South Tucson law doesn't seem poorly worded or badly aimed to me. It's just ridiculous that a professional is so blatantly violating the law in support of an already cruel and inhumane business. Most people hold professionals to a higher standard, and rightly so. Also, there are commonly differences in the law governing the behavior of a municipality, a professional, a business, and people/households. The steroid law was specifically aimed at professionals, such as this vet, in the racing industry. I think that's perfectly aimed.

Well, then don't quit your day job and take up drafting legislation.

What about this seems well-worded?
"NO PERSON SHALL CONFINE A DOG TO A CRATE OR CAGE SMALLER THAN 35 INCHES HIGH BY 45 INCHES LONG BY 35 INCHES WIDE FOR MORE THAN A TOTAL
OF EIGHTEEN HOURS IN ANY TWENTY-FOUR HOUR PERIOD UNLESS SUCH CONFINEMENT IS DEEMED MEDICALLY NECESSARY BY A VETERINARIAN LICENSED BY THE STATE OF ARIZONA"

Then there's the fact that the town of South Tucson does not have the authoritative ability to regulate the practice of veterinary medicine and doesn't have jurisdiction to take any action.

For the record -
I do not have any idea who Catherine is, but I appreciate her rational comments and feedback on the discussion here, and her interest in supporting GREY2K USA. Thank you, Catherine!

PJ, you know what they say about assumptions. You really have very little to add of any value to the conversation, save providing that excellent article about the blatant violations of the Tucson Dog Protection Act by Dr. Robinson, and Tom Taylor's inarticulate and irrational defense of those violations.

Thank you for bringing attention to more proof of how the welfare of greyhounds is the last thing on the mind of the dog racing industry.

Swifthounds: What part of that do you think is objectionable? I simply don't see a problem.

As for the steroid law, if the town lacks the necessary authority, why were track officials trying to find ways to skirt the law?

From KOLD News 13: http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=9484471 -- "The track is also looking into taking the dogs outside of South Tucson for steroids."

From the same source, "The Arizona Department of Racing said that its staff at the track will report violations of the ordinance and provide witness testimony if necessary. However, the department also said that is does not have the resources to investigate violations of a rule that is not its own." It sounds to me like the AZ DoR doesn't have any objection to the law or question its reach into the track environs.

This is not routine or standard veterinary care for illness or injury. Shooting female greyhounds up with anabolic steroids to suppress estrus and keep them racing is so far from medically appropriate that it should be illegal. Oh, wait, it IS illegal!

Swifthounds: So, what part of the South Tucson law, as you quoted it, do you consider poorly worded or badly aimed?

Name calling by pro-racing? For the record, I've done no name calling, though I've been quite the target of it.

Swifthounds: Yes, name calling by pro-racing people like PJ and a number of others. I must admit, I don't recall you being the subject of any such activity, but I'm not interested in searching back to see what you mean.

But, speaking of name-calling...are you going to introduce yourself and tell us about your experience?

I've engaged in no name calling, nor have I engaged in anything resembling a personal attack. No need to check my previous posts. I have been on the receiving end of both.

I've gone on at length about my experience with training, canine behavior, volunteering, fostering, transporting, feeding, conditioning, and various performance activities - the last 15 years or so with a focus on greyhounds. I did even offer assistance with the hound Jen Krebs seems to be having so many issues with as I've had a lot of success getting dogs with those issues to be calm, well-adjusted and happier dogs once their humans were on track to allow them to succeed.

Swifthounds: No, you haven't gone on at any length about your experience. You have simply stated the same thing twice. You spoke about credibility, but you want us take you at face value, based on the statement that you have focused on greyhounds for the last 15 years. What does that mean? I have experience doing all the things you talked about with a number of different breeds, too. They were pets! Does that make me an expert or any more knowledgeable than anyone else? No. However, I have also taken steps to educate myself about boxers and greyhounds. Am I likely to be called as an expert witness? Absolutely not. Should I be afforded more respect than anyone else? Probably not.

So, please tell us a little more about your "experience". Have you been a trainer, an owner, a kennel worker, a track official, a pet store employee...?

No 'Swifthounds', I don't have issues with my greyhound.

My greyhound has sound phobias and fear of strangers and children. His 'issues' are the reason why he was 'retired' from racing - his trainer's exact words to me when I picked him up at the track were - "he has the ability but not the mind for it" .

In fact, the first time I laid eyes on him, he was cowering in the back of his cage in the kennel - and for the record, I don't believe that behavior was because of the way that trainer treated him.

I can't say for certain why he is the way he is - I can only say that it's taken time for him to be more trusting of people and new situations. He's come a long way in 16 months, and with us, he is the most of affectionate of any of our greys. He will continue to get more trusting and comfortable with the time, patience and unconditional love he receives from us.

Regardless 'Swifthounds', since you won't even identify yourself here, I have no belief whatsoever that your 'offer of assistance' was sincere.

Instead, it was another thinly veiled personal attack - I can assure you I am perfectly ' on track to allow him to succeed'.

I'm not sure whether mistaking an offer of assistance for a thinly veiled personal attack is more paranoia or egotism. For the record, I offer advice, consultation, and assistance to those who are in need, for the purpose of helping dogs, without regard to personal opinion of an individual or their particular beliefs. I put the well being of the dogs before petty differences.

Quote:"I put the well being of the dogs before petty differences."

Is somehow in stark contradiction to the fact you support a continuation of greyhound racing, which kills thousands of dogs for gambling and entertainment.

Got enough rope yet?

How magnanimous of you, Swifthounds - I'm so glad you care so deeply about our 'spook' boy.

Since you seem to have assumed that we are so 'in need' here, I'll put aside my paranoia or egotism (I'll let you pick the one you prefer to label me with) and accept your offer of assistance, and I thank you in advance.

Perhaps you'd like to provide your name and contact information?

Or, I'm easily found, aren't? Feel free to send me an e-mail - I'll be happy to put aside our 'petty differences' and speak with you further about your expertise and my lack thereof.

Looking forward to speaking with you!

All the rope is in your sole possession. You're the one who keeps starting that racing "kills thousands of dogs for gaming and entertainment" without a scintilla of evidence to back up that bald assertion.

Ha ha, you do realise that saying: "You're the one who keeps starting that racing "kills thousands of dogs for gaming and entertainment" without a scintilla of evidence to back up that bald assertion."

Is in fact the archetypal act of publicly hanging yourself in public, don't you?

You have herewith lost every shred of credibilty you might have retained by being honest and upfront with your contibutions to this discussion, Swifthounds.

You are by your own design, now totally irrelevant.

I have no comment.

Just proves that greyhounds can't sing.

Between 2001 and 2003, 119 dogs tested positive for cocaine at Florida racetracks.

In November 2008, a dog tested positive for cocaine at Palm Beach Kennel Club - http://jenkrebs.blogspot.com/2010/06/cocaine-positive-in-greyhound-racing-at.html

In late 2009, two dogs test positive for cocaine in Alabama - two different dogs, two different tracks, two different trainers/racing kennels.

http://jenkrebs.blogspot.com/2010/05/two-greyhounds-in-alabama-test-positive.html

And in January 2010, two more dogs tested positive for cocaine at Jacksonville Kennel Club.

http://jenkrebs.blogspot.com/2010/07/two-more-cocaine-positive-greyhounds.html

You would think that the racing industry would require dog tracks to drug test the employees that are handling greyhounds, seeing as how the dogs' welfare is so important?

Out of how many greyhounds tested total?

Swifthounds: That's a good question. How many greyhounds are tested? Everything I can find simply says the dogs in question were, "randomly selected", but they don't tell you out of how many, or how frequently such selections are made. And this is another instance of states making their own laws, with no requirement of parity between states. This is troublesome given the routine practice of transporting greyhounds across state lines to race.

Regardless of how many are tested, having any dog test positive for banned substances casts a dark shadow on the industry, and rightfully so.

LOL, does it matter?!?

As I wrote, wouldn't you think that if this industry cares for the dogs as they say they do, they would protect them from being handled by people using cocaine? Or actually try to figure out how the dogs are testing positive for it to begin with?

Apparently not.

That's like saying that if people cared about pets, all pets would be tested for drug use - if we cared about pet dogs. I don't approve of cocaine in any dogs or anyone else, but I've not seen a single positive test in a racer that indicates levels that would demonstrate that the dogs were actively given cocaine. And we don't have any other contingent of the dog population tested, so we can't even determine whether these results would be as common in other populations.

Swifthounds: For Pete's sake, do you not understand that dog racing is a gambling *business*!? People are wagering on the performance of these animals, so whether they are being given performance enhancing substances is completely relevant. If you're in possession of cocaine and are giving it to your personal pet, then you're an idiot and probably subject to penalties for animal abuse.

As for any other population of dogs - unless you are growing coca plants in your yard, your dog will not test positive for cocaine metabolites in any way except through the ingestion of cocaine.

Swifthounds said: "I've not seen a single positive test in a racer that indicates levels that would demonstrate that the dogs were actively given cocaine."

Since I posted earlier that there is no way to extrapolate quantity of cocaine ingested from measurements of benzoylecgonine, what level would indicate to you intentional administration versus incidental or secondhand contact?

Whether racers are being given performance enhancing substances is relevant to the gamblers, to the other trainers, and to the owners insofar as they have an interest in the health of their animals and the related outcomes. Since cocaine is not performance enhancing, whether a greyhound tests positive at a track, in a home, or kept on a farm tests positive for it isn't any more relevant.

Swifthounds said: "Since cocaine is not performance enhancing, whether a greyhound tests positive at a track, in a home, or kept on a farm tests positive for it isn't any more relevant."

Apparently the entire industry considers the presence of cocaine to be relevant, since they test for it. Whether it is performance enhancing or not, and that is a matter for debate and research, it is a banned substance, banned by the industry. Why don't we test pets for cocaine? Because the exposure of a pet would be a concern in regards to the general health of that pet, and such a test could be conducted in conjunction with an investigation of animal abuse. We don't randomly test pets because nobody is wagering on their performance, as they are in the racing industry.

If you'd like to have a discussion about the physiological and psychological effects of cocaine, I'd be happy to do that, but not in this venue.

Swifthounds: I'm still interested in the data you have about the correlation between levels of ingested cocaine and levels of metabolites, especially as it relates to urine testing or blood testing in greyhounds.

What "misinformation," specifically?

If your dog's foster family thought the dog was abused, I do hope it was reported to the proper authority.